The $2 Trillion Nightmare

Hetep and Respect Tamh, your right, the number is actually 3 Trillion Click Here

Hehe, what's a trillion here or there!? :o)

Every male reading this will get prostate cancer if you live long enough.

Maybe GWB will live long enough :-)

I don't appreciate you flippant use of prostate cancer as a means of getting rid of men that you disagree with. I'm just over fifty and have recurrent prostate cancer...it's devastating news to both me and my two children.

I just hope GWB lives long enough to read his legacy. I'm sure it will make him more miserable than any bout with with cancer.

Every male reading this will get prostate cancer if you live long enough.

Maybe GWB will live long enough :-)

ezeques comment was definitely out of line.

However, he is correct about every male ... just had a prostate specialist tell me the same thing.

My sympathies to zulu. It wasn't an idle conversation I was having with a prostate specialist....... but, so far I have been lucky.

To that I say it's more important to secure the future than to take vengence for the past. If anyone is going to stop the financial hemorraging of this war it's going to be a Democrat.

So you secure your future by investing it in the people who @!$%#ed up your past? Really?

I hear Enron's reopening its doors - are you looking for a retirement plan?

If only the administration and congress (Republicans and Democrats) were held accountable for their actions. Especially the illegal ones.

Hetep and Respect ApostleZeruel, Speaking of how things work, we started with surplus, before McBush gave it to the haves and have mores.

The money was created specifically for the war.

That sounds really pretty, but were do you think that money comes from? From thin air? It's from our pockets. People forget that all those billions are in fact OUR money. So it does make sense to

cry about the sorts of things we COULD have done with the money

because at the end of the day, it came out of OUR pocket. Those debts that have been created to maintain their spending levels, are in fact OUR debts, which WE have to pay. And, yes, our President, our congresspeople, even our judges have to be held accountable for it. There needs to be a redress of grievances as to how they're spending OUR money and running our nation into the ground.

It's not just about the things that COULD be done, but about the things that ARE being done with OUR money, RIGHT NOW.

Just pondering... (or perhaps today, more like venting ;) )

The point is that this money has not come out of our pockets; not yet anyway. A portion of it came from the previous surplus that Clinton left, and the rest of it is money fabricated into debt and deficits (which are not the same thing). This money will likely never be realized, not in the sense that the $1 trillion (or however many) dollars will be paid to the letter at some point by the collective Americans. That debt will instead manifest itself in other averse economic effects, primarily affecting your children and grandchildren, if you are over 35 years old.

And yes, the money DOES materialize out of thin air: the Federal Reserve literally prints it, or issues it in a promissory fashion to the financial institutions. We have not had to pay for this war yet; not by a long run.

(As a curiosity, have you really seen your standard of living drop corresponding to the unimaginable amount of 'money' our government has lost these past six years?)

The point is that this money has not come out of our pockets; not yet anyway.

And yes, the money DOES materialize out of thin air: the Federal Reserve literally prints it, or issues it in a promissory fashion to the financial institutions. We have not had to pay for this war yet; not by a long run.

You have a curious understanding of economics.

It has absolutely come out of your pockets. One early manifestation is the drastic decline in the US dollar. As I have written previously, I bought Rhode Island - it was cheap (I mean inexpensive).

And stupid spending crowds out other spending - as mentioned SS and health care could pretty much be solved - the cost? stop invading, bullying and killing. Instead the latest headline is the USA has decided to lead the space weapons race - the world WILL end in a century or two I fear.

Reminds me of that seinfeld episode.

"just write it off" --- "You don't even know what that means, do you? "

I agree with Chill here. Money does not materialize out of thin air.

A portion of it came from the previous surplus that Clinton left

Oh? 'cause that was Clinton's money. It came out of his personal pocket. Thanks, I was worried that that surplus came from MY tax money. (sorry. that one was too easy.)

That debt will instead manifest itself in other averse economic effects, primarily affecting your children and grandchildren

Again, this isn't our money again, how? It's certainly a lovely thought. Let's keep it up.

the money DOES materialize out of thin air: the Federal Reserve literally prints it, or issues it in a promissory fashion to the financial institutions

You really need to learn more about how this works.

We have not had to pay for this war yet; not by a long run.

You are 100% correct! There's still another few trillion left to pay without counting all that has been (and will be) spent due to the economic destruction of the country. Here's a fun one: Won't it be great when oil is no longer traded to the dollar. Yey!

As a curiosity, have you really seen your standard of living drop corresponding to the unimaginable amount of 'money' our government has lost these past six years?

Yes. Yes. Oh, and yes. Oh, and many of my friends as well. Many people are feeling it, as their homes are taken away, their jobs lost, and the cost of things rise. Some of it is tied to gas prices, some of it to the lower dollar, but it all boils down to having considerable less purchasing power and in some cases losing that power altogether.

As a final note, whenever Mr. Little Tree cuts down one of those money trees that pay for our services, because he needs to pay to play with his giant toy soldier set in Iraq, it's real money that's taken away from something else. That real money is our money. Ever heard the phrase, "Your tax dollars at work?" Well, you know that money that was taken from your paycheck? That's what they're referring to.

As always, just pondering...

P.S. Somebody please take away the giant RISK set away from Mr. Little Tree. Thank you. ;)

And yes, the money DOES materialize out of thin air: the Federal Reserve literally prints it, or issues it in a promissory fashion to the financial institutions. We have not had to pay for this war yet; not by a long run.

Head over to Europe with a pocket full of dollars and see if you can't figure out the adverse effect this plan has. You have a very ... unique grasp on economics.

Yes, yes, I understand that we will have to pay for the war in economic terms. We won't, however, pay for it in monetary terms, and that what what I was saying. The debt that the dollar is currently inflating to pay off will prevent us from spending money on things now and in the future, but to say that if we had never gone to war we could instead have cured AIDS, or fed the world twice over, or what have you is nonsense. No war means no money, unless you are willing to go into the same amount of debt to feed the world. That was all that I was trying to say, not that we somehow won't have to pay this back eventually. I believe some of that aggressiveness was not in order.

We won't, however, pay for it in monetary terms, and that what what I was saying.

We already have and continue to do so. The fact that the surplus is gone. The fact that we're paying twice the price for everything. The fact that some of our tax money is being directed from something domestic to something war related. We are paying for it now.

The debt that the dollar is currently inflating to pay off will prevent us from spending money on things now and in the future

Definitely, and we have to pay it back one way or another.

but to say that if we had never gone to war we could instead have cured AIDS, or fed the world twice over, or what have you is nonsense

You're right. It would be nonsense to say we could instead cure AIDS or feed the world twice over since we wouldn't have done that anyway. But this is your original statement:

but to cry about the sorts of things we COULD have done with the money doesn't seem to make much sense

Your original statement, though, sorry, is not quite the same thing. We have a right and duty to question what is being done with our money. Our government decided to venture into this war, and our money is being used for it. Our future money is also being promised to pay for it. So, under those circumstances it's completely logical to question the sanity of such actions and whether or not we could instead direct that same effort to serve a better purpose. This is what people are actually complaining about, that it should be directed towards a better purpose.

Plus, considering how it has affected our country on so many levels, it's easy to see why we should reevaluate what our government has done and will do with our money.

That was all that I was trying to say, not that we somehow won't have to pay this back eventually.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I think everyone here understood that you were saying something different in your previous statements.

I believe some of that aggressiveness was not in order.

I think that often, the tone of written statements tends to be misread due to the lack of voice modulation and visual expression, making directness seem aggressive, more so than it perhaps would be in a real life debate, though those can be quite heated and aggressive as well, without that being necessarily a bad thing.

I don't think anyone's intention here is to attack anyone personally. A topic is being discussed. The points are debated back and forth. Your statements are analyzed and responded to, as are mine, and everyone else's. It's part of the debate (and one of a very heated topic that is currently affecting too many people's ability to put food on the table). So, sorry you felt that way, as I don't think it was anyone's intention here, and thank you for such a fun and wonderful discussion.

I think he exceeded all of our nightmares, Lotto.

Hetep and Respect gedanken_1, You have a point with the 80% the American people are sometimes slow to get it, Like with enslavement of human bengs.

But we do not have to swallow it. We are going to vote to CHANGE it, watch us.

You cannot change what has passed.

600,000 people have been killed and trillions of dollars wasted.

But yes, let us kill nomore and waste nomore.

It is so very sad people like you exist and support the nightmare of this administration. People like you will destroy our great country.

The trouble most Americans wouldn't put a very high value per person for the hundreds of thousands of dead and million + displaced - since they are primarily darker skinned people on the far side of the world.

I'm afraid your right, Chill. That's the impression I get talking with people about the war. People seem concerned about the American dead and wounded, and about how much money this war is costing us, but I've heard very few people mention the suffering of the Iraqi people - the dead, wounded, and the refugees, who number in the millions. We don't seem to be the compassionate people we once were.

We're no less compassionate but the masses tune to the MSM and the hearts follow the story lines. Press doesn't do much more than infomertials, war is 30 seconds of a burning car with a pull down illustrated map with a star. By itself it doesn't evoke thoughts of refugees and in fact so many Americans have more than they can manage on their own plates, humping to try to survive and nothing left for pondering the world's woes when the heat bill is in hand.

Pamela, I think your exactly right.

Most Americans are decent, hard-working people - living their own personal struggles - who unfortunately are hopelessly ignorant of the sufferings of the world and the pains of war.

in fact so many Americans have more than they can manage on their own plates, humping to try to survive and nothing left for pondering the world's woes when the heat bill is in hand

You're certainly right about that, Pamela. I see many signs of that in my own middle class neighborhood. We've had four foreclosures within 100 yards of my house in the last six months, so I know a lot of people are hurting, some because of poor financial choices, and some because of circumstances beyond their control and the worsening economy.

The prison complex is a Rockefeller dream deal, it's a real racket, why employ someone for a living wage when you can lock him up, pay pennies and charge a fortune to house feed and confine. Catherine Austin Fitts, former Dillon Reed investment banker appointed by Bush I to HUD has an awesome section on the site about the prison profits.

She uncovered billions in loan fraud, reported it and was fired and hunted since. How dare she track taxpayer spending and look for a return on loans and investments like it's Dillon Reed, tee hee not the game at all, not when fleecing has served so well with a bit of classified in a pinch!

This has a section with prison features but my money is spending the hour to go through the whole Washington-Wall Street swindle by teams and tricks, with evidence, open with Brady, Bush and Bechtel

Only a mean spirited idiot would have been so short sighted not to have seen this in advance.

Even mean spirited idiots saw it coming! This is from 1994 *smirk*